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MetalLife.com Interview With Jeff Wagner (author)
By: Terry Bunch
Date: Aug 2010

1. Metal Life Magazine: "Mean Deviation: Four Decades of Progressive Heavy Metal" is the title of your book. What inspired you to focus on progressive metal?

Jeff Wagner: A book on this topic has never been published, and it's overdue for investigation. I was crazy enough to write it, Bazillion Points were brave enough to publish it. The final outcome is actually really nice; at least, it looks amazing. It's up to other people to decide how it reads, of course. I've felt for a long time that "progressive metal" was less a genre and more a way of applying a variety of unusual techniques, big ideas and eclectic influences to metal. I'm not comfortable calling progressive metal a genre, or subgenre. I think all it means is that some oddball band is twisting metal into a shape we've never quite heard before. Sometimes that calls for the utilization of cutting-edge technology, sometimes not. Sometimes it asks the musician to be technically brilliant, but sometimes it's more about grand imagination than any kind of prodigious technical talent. It's definitely not one particular sound, so in writing the book, one of my main objectives was to show exactly that.

2. Metal Life Magazine: As an editor for Metal Maniacs, you were famous for promoting underground bands. Did this trend in your style affect which bands you chose to include in your book?

Jeff Wagner: No. I was only concerned with highlighting the most interesting, innovative metal bands out there. Mainstream, underground, or whatever, none of that really entered into my decision on whom to include. If they were hugely influential, as Opeth and Dream Theater have been, they deserved to be in the book. If they were super-cult, like Oxiplegatz or Carbonized, they had to be innovative in some significant way--with a unique vision and a sound apart from all other metal bands--to find a place in the story. There had to be an interesting evolution or odd musical story to tell. Also, newer bands, like Hammers of Misfortune (still pretty much underground) and Mastodon (nearly mainstream) don't get a ton of coverage, because I feel their musical stories are still being told; they're too "in flux" to put under the microscope at this point. But I didn't set out to promote any particular band; I set out to promote the idea that metal, as a musical form, is pretty much limitless in terms of what can be done with it.

3. Metal Life Magazine: Voivod drummer, Michel "Away" Langevin, provided the book's illustrations and the cover. How did that partnership come about?

Jeff Wagner: I've been a Voivod fan since their first album came out. They're one of the most fascinating and progressive metal bands of all time. And I've always loved Away's artwork. Over the years, I got acquainted with him through interviews and the business and all that, and so has Ian Christe [head of the book's publishing company, Bazillion Points]. When it came time to think about who we wanted to provide artwork for the cover, we were pretty much in total agreement that Away was our #1 choice (Dave Patchett was my second choice, known in the metal world for his Cathedral album covers). Away happily took up the task, and he did an awesome job. I'm honored and humbled that he participated in the making of Mean Deviation.

4. Metal Life Magazine: For the benefit of those readers who have not already heard the hype about "Mean Deviation", tell us what we can expect when reading this book. Is it simply a documentary style history or do you dig deeper than that?

Jeff Wagner: There's a variety of approaches happening, because it's such a complex group of bands we're talking about, although I tried to maintain a flow throughout the narrative. This book covers a lot of musical territory, and I was always aware of the danger of either covering too much, or not enough. There are some bands that I didn't delve into that I could have, and I very consciously pulled back on some because I didn't want to thin out the story too much. I needed to keep as tight a focus as possible, yet make sure all the main bases were covered. It's partly documentary-style, because I'm unearthing a particular thread of music history. But because the meaning of "progressive" as it applies to heavy metal is so subjective, and because the worth or importance of any band's music is entirely up to the listener, it had to be part opinion as well. My own viewpoint had to come into play, although I tried to speak more as an attentive, analytical listener and tried, as best I could, to temper the emotional fan in me--that side of us that connects deeply and purely emotionally to our favorite music. Likewise, I'm not harsh on bands I don't like; I try and make clear throughout the book what "progressive metal" is exactly, and who the most interesting characters are in this tale, whether I'm a huge fan of some band or not. I tried to strike a balance between being the fan and being the critic.

5. Metal Life Magazine: The book's forward is written by Porcupine Tree founding member Steven Wilson. What prompted you to choose him over other potential people?

Jeff Wagner: Having someone write the foreword who is known outside of the metal genre, but also who understands and has intersected with it, seemed appropriate. Because there's so much intersection between progressive rock and metal, and because so many of the bands in the book have drawn so much inspiration from music other than metal, Steven seemed like the perfect choice. I could have asked Mikael Åkerfeldt or Mike Portnoy to do it, and I would have been proud to have them do it, but that would have been a little too obvious, a little too easy. Steven was enthusiastic about it right away. When he realized our views are very much aligned about what exactly "progressive metal" means (ie. it's not just about bands who sound like Dream Theater), he went right to it. The way he did this says a lot about him, in terms of how hard-working he is. When he agreed, he said "yes, I'll do it, but I'm very busy right now, and, truth be told, for the next six months," something like that. I told him, "no problem, you can have that much time, I don't need it right away." So I was expecting to wait months for his piece, and three weeks later I get an email out of nowhere with his bit totally completed. And it was very good. As with Away's participation, I'm immensely honored that Steven participated, as I've been a Porcupine Tree fan since I first heard "Fadeaway" in 1994.

6. Metal Life Magazine: What would you say is the most surprising thing we will find in "Mean Deviation?"

Jeff Wagner: It will vary from reader to reader, I think. Some won't be surprised to find more ink given to Pan-Thy-Monium than Vanden Plas, but some will be. Some might be surprised to find that Rush is pretty much the common denominator, in terms of influence, amongst the incredibly wide array of bands featured, including some of the more extreme bands. Some won't be surprised about that at all. It really depends on who you are. There are probably a couple cool surprises inside, things that will make even the diehard fan go, "I didn't know that"…but I wouldn't want to spoil it for anyone, so please feel free to find out for yourselves.

7. Metal Life Magazine: What was the most challenging section of the book to work on?

Jeff Wagner: Chapter 13, titled 'Deviation or Derivation?' The chapter delves into the mass of bands that arose in the '90s, heavily influenced by the Big Three (Queensrÿche, Fates Warning, Dream Theater). It's the subset of bands most commonly associated with the term "progressive metal," something I always found a bit ironic (and the reason "four decades" is noted in the subtitle, so I could cast a wider net). Many of them are incredible players, good songwriters, and a few etch out their own artistic voice, but generally I feel they're mis-labeled as "progressive" (not the Big Three themselves, just the followers; each of the Big Three get plenty of space and respect in this book). Before I sat down to write the very first word of this book, I already knew I was going to have to be very careful in the writing of this particular part, and that some fans were going to be at odds with my opinion about this. But I don't believe I've been unfair. I state my case clearly, and give plenty of coverage to bands such as Ayreon and Pain of Salvation, who broke out of the mold and created their own interesting worlds. It's a very good chapter, I think, and somewhat of an axis point in the book. It was reassuring that some of the biggest names in this corner of the metal world, such as Mike Portnoy, Jim Matheos, Daniel Gildenlöw, Jim Pitulski and Ken Golden, all seemed to agree with or understand what I was attempting with this chapter. So that was the most challenging part to write, but it was all challenging. I could've picked a much easier topic to tackle, that's for sure.

8. Metal Life Magazine: What makes a band decide to play progressive metal? Do you think there is a specific goal that this genre embodies?

Jeff Wagner: Since I have trouble thinking of it as a "genre," the second part of your question is tough to answer. The reason I don't like to think of it as a genre, with some kind of unified goal, is because Pain of Salvation sounds absolutely nothing like Enslaved; Arcturus sounds nothing like Between the Buried and Me; Cynic sounds nothing like Dream Theater; and Opeth sounds nothing like Psychotic Waltz, but they can all be confidently labeled progressive metal bands. To answer the first part of the question, I see these as traits of the progressive-minded metal musician: having extraordinary ambition; having a grand imagination; drawing from an eclectic set of influences; a desire to stretch far beyond previous work (ie. never recording the same album twice); wanting to bring metal into the world that is unlike any other metal out there.

9. Metal Life Magazine: Many metal bands blend various elements into their sound and by strict definition that would fit the moniker of "progressive." How would you define what "progressive metal" is?

Jeff Wagner: As you've probably guessed from reading some of the previous answers, that's pretty much the biggest challenge I took on here, and something I tried to figure out in the book's almost 400 pages. Although I didn't go into it deeply, and maybe should have, I do mention in the book that bands such as Bathory, Pyogenesis and Carcass, for instance, all started at one particular point, stylistically, and ended up far away from that starting point by the time their evolution concluded. Does that make them progressive? Not necessarily. They're just doing what true artists do--changing and growing as they go along. I guess I was looking at bands in terms of influence, and if not that, then technical prowess, and if not that, then just how bizarre and erratic a band's evolutionary shifts were. Let's say some modern tech-death metal band weaves elements of jazz, reggae and folk into their sound. Fine. But if that's where they started, and they're repeating that formula album after album after album, it's not truly progressive. They're just doing the one thing they do, even if it is an unusual sort of hybrid. So, as you say, a wide array of bands can easily fall under the "progressive" designation. Mean Deviation is my attempt to define "progressive metal," but it's really just my own view. It's a valid view, but no more or less so than anyone else who has done just as much listening as I have. That's why I hope other people try and answer the question for themselves with other books on the topic, because I think it is indeed that subjective. I'll be the first in line to buy the second book on this subject.

10. Metal Life Magazine: Are you working on any other projects that you would like to share? Is there another book coming?

Jeff Wagner: As soon as I was done with the actual writing of this book, I realized I wasn't at all done with it. It's likely the same way a band feels when they finish recording an album-they're done with that part of it, the most important part, but then they have to go through the mixing process, take part in the layout process, wait for the album to be released, then spend lots of time promoting it, etc. etc. I'm pretty sure I'll be writing another book in the future-I enjoyed this process immensely, and I learned a ton, even though it was a daunting and sometimes maddening task--and I have some ideas that I'd like to tackle next, but for now I need to focus on the public life of Mean Deviation before moving on. Only four people, including myself, have read this entire book (as of this interview), so it's probably not quite time for me to move on yet. Not very progressive thinking, I know. :)

11. Metal Life Magazine: Metal Life Magazine focuses on the hobbies and interests of heavy metal fans. When you have free time, what are you doing?

Jeff Wagner: I read a lot; all kinds of stuff--fiction, non-fiction, classics, new stuff, graphic novels. I love to play tennis and have gotten back into watching and following baseball (I left it behind in the early '90s for some reason). I watch a wide variety of movies (not really into superhero, sci-fi or action flick sort of stuff-more comedy and drama, and weird non-genre stuff, mostly). I'm super-interested in good beer, starting with the great and artistic Belgian ales, as well as the many innovative brewers here in the states, like Dogfish Head, Stone, Avery, Southern Tier and so many others. I've also brewed my own beer. I enjoy getting outdoors and working on the property, you know, manly-man stuff like mowing, chainsawing/splitting wood, working on our pond, etc. I'm involved in animal rescue too, mostly cats. That's my wife's #1 passion and I support her efforts and help her with that. Cats are the greatest. And I love to cook: pour a beer, hit album shuffle on the iPod, and create my own dishes and/or take pointers from a variety of cookbooks. That's about my favorite hour of the day, at least, when my head's not deep inside some favorite album.

12. Metal Life Magazine: Is there anything else you would like to share with our readers?

Jeff Wagner: Sincere thanks for your interest in Mean Deviation. Let's go out with a verse from the book of Zappa: "Information is not knowledge; knowledge is not wisdom; wisdom is not truth; truth is not beauty; beauty is not love; love is not music; music is THE BEST."